Even when scripting for other artists, I write as economically as possible. My average script for a page of comic takes up half a page of script. Then again, if it were up to me, I'd prefer to work in the Marvel Method, and concise panel descriptions are as close as I can sometimes get. I prefer to collaborate, not dictate (except when it comes to WORDS).
I received an 80-page script for a 40-page comic from a writer recently, and it took all I had not to punch him through the computer. (To clarify, as an editor, not an artist.)
I do "Marvel Method" with Michael Dialynas because he's so good at his craft, and we work well together. However, I put the dialogue in pre-art as both Michael and Chris (my editor) want to see it, and so do I. Often, though, I'll revise it during the lettering process.
@SteveHorton - how much revision do you end up doing, on average?
Just like you, I tinker with the dialogue in the lettering process, but lately I find myself doing it more than average. I also rough out word ballons and text right on the art page, so having the room isn't a problem, it's just that I'm second-guessing my own script later down the line.
I chalk it up to not being a good writer -- but merely a passable one.
Each script goes through about four major revisions from rough draft to finished form. Not to say I don't tweak things along the way, but those don't count.
Depends on the artist and the story and the format. If an artist can handle certain kinds of scenes better than me I'm more likely to let them just run with it.
I tend to run 1-1.5 pages of script per, but I format everything in Courier and mine look a lot like screenplays, so, there's a lot of whitespace. If you take the formatting out it I probably write about as much as Russell, panel-for-panel... well below Alan Moore spec but a lot heavier than John Wagner.
And as Franks can attest to, I'm very much on the Wagner side of the spectrum. The scripts get progressively shorter as the series go on, as well, since most of my longer stuff is describing locations and people. But probably fifty percent of my panel descriptions are only one sentence. I haven't managed one word panel descriptions, but I'm getting there.
I always marvel at Justin's confidence in producing such tight scripts.
Confidence in himself and confidence in his artists.
I should add here that not all my scripts are heavy. Kensuke is little more than playscript--I don't even break it down into pages and panels. Tom does all of that.
A lot of Sixsmiths vol.01 scripts were pretty much just panel breaks and dialogue, no direction, but that was with an artist I'd been working with for eight years and I pretty much knew what he would do with it.
49 pages of script (plus one page pitch) for 96 pages of story. But I format tightly and keep the font size small. I want to print out as few pages as possible.
Speaking of printing: instead of murdering trees*, I've been using tablets (in this case, a Kindle Fire) to have "hard copies" of scripts and notes. Like, that's how I letter THAW each week, for example, or keep script notes at hand on the Doug flick: I just have a word doc or PDF on Dropbox or the device, and access it through whatever PDF/word doc reader I DLed for that.
(I'm finding PDFs are better, due to being slightly easier to navigate/save places on)
Off-topic, but in addition to the script, I also keep my illustrated-pages-in-progress loaded in the Dropbox app on my iPad, for quick reference as I draw on my TabletPC.
I was just asked this in an interview and it seems apropos to this discussion.
1) What kind of things can writers do to help make you happy as an artist?
2) What kind of things do writers do that make you unhappy as an artist?
3) What practical advice, if any, can you give newbie writers seeking to work with artists such as yourself that will make your life easier and/or make you more excited to work with them?
1)What kind of things can writers do to help make you happy as an artist?
As an artist I'd like the writer to encourage the concept of the book. How much encouragement depends on the artist. If the writer collaborates with someone who already sees eye-to-eye with their vision then things tend to work very smoothly. However, the usual case is that the artist is not an exact fit, especially if the book has a unique concept. Thus, the writer would be well served to dish up as much inspiration to the artist as possible. Even if the artist has a handle on the material it never hurts to add more gas on the fire. As an artist the trick is always finding a path or key into the writer's head. I know some writers are just happy to have their work illustrated. Often I hear how members in a team might acquiesce certain aspects of a book just to get it done, not rock the boat, or not piss off someone else. The politics and personality quirks of a team have ruined more books than I can count.
But let's looks at this from the POV of writing your epic tome. I'm talking about that project where the writer wants to really hang his hat. In my opinion, ALL comics should be like that. Every new issue should be your best. So from that vantage point the writer should jump in, rally the concept, do a little less bending and inspire the troops. Through inspiration comes the unknown. When the artist is pumped up you'll see it in the line work, the backgrounds get attention, Easter Eggs get planted, the work gets done sooner. In short, writing all the words in a perfect cadence or by a strict style guide is not enough when it comes to working with an artist. The collaboration is what makes the book sing.
2)What kind of things do writers do that make you unhappy as an artist?
First off, the worst offender is picking the wrong artist. The writer *must* understand they need to at least get close to their intended target. I know some writers can get desperate because finding a good artist and one that will commit to a project is, in itself, a long shot. This results in shoving a square artist into a round hole. A science fiction writer who teams up with a children's coloring book artist is only asking for trouble. I'm not saying that will never work, but it requires a LOT of encouragement to mold that artist into the writer's vision. Such bending and shaping often leads to breaking points. So finding the right artist is the key to keeping that artist happy. I know that's easier said than done, but this is not an easy business.
Once you find an artist that is close enough (someone who has at least drawn in the genre you like, or has shown some interest) then the next mistake to avoid is micro-managing. Adding critiques and comments about every rock and blade of grass on the ground is a quick path to a dead end. This is where the encouragement comes in. Instead of dictating exactly how something should be drawn the writer can cheerlead from the side with examples and with things that they both have in common. On the flip side, there's nothing wrong with pointing out if the book is going in the wrong direction. Holding back is another mistake the writer can make. If the book is going off the rails and the writer says nothing until page 15 then it puts the artist in a position of spinning their wheels. Most artists understand the need to redraw panels and pages -- especially if they've missed the mark. But I can say, speaking as an artist, when I think I'm on track I will use not only my art skills, but also my heart and desire. Now imagine wearing your heart on your sleeve and the writer says it looks good, then a month later you discover the writer hated it all along. It can be devastating to an artist and the collaboration. Trust will be broken and respect will be lost.
So the writer should make sure all cogs in the machine are lined up and oiled. Work together to create the character designs, environments and details *before* working on an art page. Anything less is asking the artist to be a mind reader, even if the artist appears to be in alignment with your vision. Get it on paper and refer back to it when things get sketchy. An artist will evolve their technique over time and often on the same book. If the artist draws the same character many times they might try to throw in some variation. Sometimes this works, but other times the writer might need to come back in with those original character designs and point out when things are starting to tip off the rails.
3)What practical advice, if any, can you give newbie writers seeking to work with artists such as yourself that will make your life easier and/or make you more excited to work with them?
It's hard to define such a thing but my best advice would be patience. Writers can crank out a lot of material. Far more product than artists. This might leave a writer feeling that they are twiddling their thumbs because they are cranking out ideas while the art is either coming very slowly, or not at all. It's tough. Also, when talking about a finite work, the writer might finish the entire story before the artist and then move to something else. This is tricky, because the writer might move their passion to another project and the artist might feel abandoned to the writer's *old* project. This is where the encouragement and cheerleading comes in. Because the writer, even if they've moved to another project, should remember their initial investment and responsibilities to the artist / collaborator. This is another side of having patience. It's very easy to get excited about a new story, but sometimes those new stories have to sit and simmer while the current story is in progress. Obviously a writer can do more than one book at a time. Several do. However, that also requires a management skill for multiple artists, which not every writer possesses when they start out. Thus, for newbie writers I say have the patience to get the first story done, stick with it, then develop on branching out with more ideas and possibly more artists. It's not easy and there's no one-way to find that path, because it has to be your path.
@marvinmann - I'm always on the fence with that. I prefer to have the script in the can, but since I don't really write anything under 48 pages anymore, that can end up being a lot of work for an artist to subsequently flake out on (and I've never been a fan of finding a new artist for a book after I've already started working with one).
I might start going with "have the first act done and the rest outlined" until pages start coming in.
Ahhh, but I have found myself sitting on my hands waiting for writers to catch up to me on several occasions in the past. It won't be an issue when I write and draw my own stories.
Yeah, it depends on the artists, too. You, I'll do a finished script for, for that reason (your preposterous, Barry Allenesque speed).
Somebody I'm working with first time, or just approaching, I'd probably do enough to give them the feel of the story, and have the spine of the rest to go on with if things pan out.
@SteveHorton - I like the basic points he made, but part of me likes bending the rules (as both artist and writer) when it comes to dynamic camera angles and close ups. I guess it's the manga side of me that likes those obscure angles where you only see the hand, or the top of the head, or the foot shifting to gear up for a punch. They pull a LOT of that in Japanese manga.
Granted those aren't clear storytelling tools, but I think breaking up the standard position on the camera with a few tricks is worth the effort. Obviously, a book that is *all* tricks would never have a heart or soul to begin with.
Here's a page from Five Weapons.
In panel 3 I cut the head off the main character and sent the object of the panel off to the side.
In panel 4 I went for a close up of the knife character to give the reader a mental position.
In panel 5 I passed the lunge with the knife and just showed the result (stabbing the juice box).
In panel 5 and 6 I dropped the background completely, but kept the character positions from panel 2.
These tricks are well... tricky. Because I'm trying to play with timing. There's no point of seeing the girl lunge / swing with the knife just to make the point that she's incredibly fast. The gag is the reaction of the male lead (shrinking away) from the knife point. Artwise, I raised his collar up to his jaw, indicating that he's tucking into his shirt .
The key to this whole page is panel 2. It's the establishing shot that shows the character positions, the garbage can, and the proximity of the knife and juice box. Also, that the boy is up on the nurse's bed (which plays into another visual trick on the following page). Some of these panels are not standard shots.
I admit, I'm also using non-standard layouts. ALL of my pages are horizontal tiers (5 or 6) per page. That makes it even harder to use some tricks because I can't always show vertical stuff without pulling far back or using a dynamic camera angle to get everything in (like in panel 3 and 4). But this is done in film every day. It's just a wide screen format.
So yeah, the blog was sound, but (in my world) there's plenty of room for a lot of bending of the story layout.
I've found that in this day and age of Google images you can save a lot of words by just including an HTML link to an image of the same thing...so instead of including a detailed description of a boy's jacket, pants, shirt, tie and shoes I just write private school uniform.
@JustinJordan mentioned that the first scripts in the series are usually longer because of the necessity for in depth character descriptions. Has anyone found value in separating off the character descriptions from the script?
Yes. I always include a separate character bible with one-paragraph descriptions of all the major characters and the setting. It's also a good place to put reference. No need to clutter up the script with that info.
I actually usually have the main character described in the character bible, to save space. But sometimes I feel the need to describe secondary characters a bit, and sometimes their role grows.
I do also link to stuff pretty often, but it's sometimes easier to just write a paragraph than spend the time searching for what I want. A private school uniform would be a gimme, but a farmhouse that has been turned into a hangout and meth lab would take longer to find the image than it takes me to describe.
@Stevehorton I'm assuming the paragraph is just a physical description for the artist to get the look right. To what extent, if any, do you create a more detailed written profile of the character for yourself to develop his or her personality and maintain internal consistency into the scripting stage?
All this cutting corners stuff and less writing only goes so far.
I am a writer / artist and I write FULL scripts for myself!
As an artist...
If a get a script with details that are SO vague and ambiguous that I have to make stuff up, then I'm asking for a co-creator's credit. I don't mean to be a dick but that IS the writer's job. If they got the time then embellish it. WRITE it! True, the artist might take a description as a guideline and do something else. The writer might think why should they write a full script when they only get about 70% detail from the artist? But this is not much different than the artist drawing a panel and having only 70% of it not blocked with word balloons. An artist would catch hell for leaving holes in the background because they just didn't need to add all that extra detail. Everyone expects the artist to fill in the *entire* page.
So give me a script that fills the *entire* issue.
Don't give me...
Panel 1. Jimmie is mad as he stares at his drink.
Panel 2. Jimmie walks out the bar.
Panel 3. Jimmie is outside on the sidewalk looking down.
Panel 4. Jimmie walks away with his head down.
Panel 5. Jimmie kicks a can in frustration.
ANYONE can write that lazy crap. Give me a full script. Something that makes me say, "damn this writer is putting his passion all into this, so I better do my part." Make me feel like I'm contributing to the story as equals. I doNOT want to feel that I'm covering for the writer. I get scripts from Derek McCulloch and you know what? I get it. He pours everything into those pages. He's a Writer with a capital "W" - that's how I see him. Same thing with Marvin Mann. People joke about Alan Moore's intensive scripts... but you know what? A TON of artists in the industry would love to get one of his scripts and a mile long line of A-list artists would fight for the job. Why? Because they expect a serious script from a guy with a serious vision.
"Panel 1. Jimmie is mad as he stares at his drink."
No.
I would ask to see the rest of the script, not some skeleton. And if that's all the writer has, then give me a co-writing / co-creator credit. I don't care if it's issue #25. If I have to always draw a full issue, then I want to always have a full script. Otherwise, my view of the writer drops a few pegs. A 22-page skeleton script can be written in a day or two. But an artist has to spend all month and more. I'd feel cheated doing that from a lazy script.
Just my opinions, that's all. It's a general rant. I'm not pointing at anyone here or elsewhere. These are just long term observations from my side of the fence over the many years in the industry.
I also admit, my *side* is unique from others because I'm not a WFH guy. I writer and draw my titles -- which can kinda suck because it cuts so deeply into my time. Derek McCulloch gave me a script over a year ago and I'm still struggling to work on it. My fault.... but, since this thread is called the craft of writing I brought it up because, trust me, I can still pick up his script today and not miss a beat. It IS a full script. No corners cut there. What I need to do is honor his work and finish it. I wish I could clone myself, haha!
Okay, yes... I have been drinking. But it's still the same. Hah!
Couple of artists I work with have told me they were intimidated when they saw how much writing was in the script--until they sat down and read it.
Probably doesn't help that I do everything in Courier. I've had that font drummed into me for years and now it doesn't look like a real script (or manuscript) unless it's Courier. That said, having a monospaced font does make it easier estimate how much space the dialogue is gonna take up.
And don't get me wrong, I know a full script is not necessary all the time. I know writers can have a bad day, week, month, issue... just like an artist can have a bad spell of time (trust me I know that one). But I'd have to really care about the book to overlook and accept lazy writing as a general rule.
Especially if a book starts out strong, then just fades to a skeleton / outline over time. An artist would catch hell and even be blamed for the cancellation of a book if his art dropped the ball all the time. I just think everyone should do their own part all the time, as much as possible.
Comments
I received an 80-page script for a 40-page comic from a writer recently, and it took all I had not to punch him through the computer. (To clarify, as an editor, not an artist.)
Just like you, I tinker with the dialogue in the lettering process, but lately I find myself doing it more than average. I also rough out word ballons and text right on the art page, so having the room isn't a problem, it's just that I'm second-guessing my own script later down the line.
I chalk it up to not being a good writer -- but merely a passable one.
And as Franks can attest to, I'm very much on the Wagner side of the spectrum. The scripts get progressively shorter as the series go on, as well, since most of my longer stuff is describing locations and people. But probably fifty percent of my panel descriptions are only one sentence. I haven't managed one word panel descriptions, but I'm getting there.
Speaking of printing: instead of murdering trees*, I've been using tablets (in this case, a Kindle Fire) to have "hard copies" of scripts and notes. Like, that's how I letter THAW each week, for example, or keep script notes at hand on the Doug flick: I just have a word doc or PDF on Dropbox or the device, and access it through whatever PDF/word doc reader I DLed for that.
(I'm finding PDFs are better, due to being slightly easier to navigate/save places on)
*I don't actually care about the trees.
1) What kind of things can writers do to help make you happy as an artist?
2) What kind of things do writers do that make you unhappy as an artist?
3) What practical advice, if any, can you give newbie writers seeking to work with artists such as yourself that will make your life easier and/or make you more excited to work with them?
@marvinmann - I'm always on the fence with that. I prefer to have the script in the can, but since I don't really write anything under 48 pages anymore, that can end up being a lot of work for an artist to subsequently flake out on (and I've never been a fan of finding a new artist for a book after I've already started working with one).
I might start going with "have the first act done and the rest outlined" until pages start coming in.
Yeah, it depends on the artists, too. You, I'll do a finished script for, for that reason (your preposterous, Barry Allenesque speed).
Somebody I'm working with first time, or just approaching, I'd probably do enough to give them the feel of the story, and have the spine of the rest to go on with if things pan out.
@JustinJordan mentioned that the first scripts in the series are usually longer because of the necessity for in depth character descriptions. Has anyone found value in separating off the character descriptions from the script?
As ever and always, I;m winging it.